"Relish Podcast" #397 The factory manager is here: How to use technology to empower the law?

Mention the law,Ordinary people think of only one word”难“,It seems that many people have never consciously or unintentionally avoided legal disputes and troubles,Speaking of lawsuits,更是避之不及.但是在现代社会,even if you don't care about the law,There will always be a day when the law will be concerned,所以,Today we tell a story about using technology to empower the law,Hear how Wu Litigation brings legal issues that are hard to reach for ordinary people,turned into an out-of-the-box service.

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主播 / 朱峰

嘉宾 / 孔令欣(Ling)、吴海燕

后期 / 卷圈

封面 / 姝琦

产品统筹 / bobo

联合制作 / 华创资本

本期嘉宾

孔令欣（Ling）,Co-Founder & Co-Founder of Wu Litigation Network TechnologyCEO,Mr. Lingxin Kong holds a double degree in Computer Science and Psychology from Stanford University,good at human-computer interaction（HCI）技术,He has experienced five Internet company startups,拥有近20Years of experience in strategic planning and team management of Internet technology companies.Before joining without litigation,Worked at Microsoft andNetApp.After serving as the executive director of Shell Search、Original Shell Gold ClothingCEO期间,Mr. Kong Lingxin from0到1Participated in Lianjia's introduction of the concept of industrial Internet,Transition to Shell Platform.

吴海燕,华创资本管理合伙人,负责投资业务和基金管理工作,And lead the investment in enterprise software.主导投资了同盾科技、老虎证券、二维火、PingCAP、TigerGraph、Wish、什么值得买、小满科技、才云科技等公司.

Program content preview

以下为节目内容,Via Huachuang CapitalCGCVC编辑——

朱峰：Hello all listeners,The guest invited today is a practitioner in a professional field,He uses his professional knowledge combined with Internet technology to help everyone solve problems.

Ling：大家好,My name is Kong Lingxin,大家可以叫我Ling.No lawsuit was established in2014 年,Focus on legal tech.前期,We are positioned in lawyer services、Lawyer collaboration tools and empowerment systems for lawyers;今天,We are positioned as the legal service carrier of people's lawyers for the people,I hope to link these capabilities to more ordinary people.

朱峰：When preparing for this show,I'm quite nervous.I don't really know much about the legal profession.,There have been several lawsuits,Contact with some legal things,I think it's too complicated.我就想,Write a complaint,Analyze the case,Can technology be used？Reduce the cost of time communication,提高效率？Because the efficiency is really low.One afternoon meeting with a lawyer every time,Several days in a row,To sort out a thick stack of documents.我看到的,There are a large number of lawsuits in a case knowhow,The accumulation of knowledge by a large number of people.No litigation to use technical means to solve this problem,让我觉得很有趣.

我接触过一些朋友,It's a headache when it comes to lawsuits.Let me throw a question to Mr. Haiyan,What do you think of the problem of legal profession？

海燕：The equity investment industry has a lot of contact with lawyers.Because every investment in a company,We all need to make legal agreements,make a series of files.Complete a company,Legal Agreements Are Stacked.Legal services and the legal system is a very complex and huge system,closely related to everyone's daily life.it's an unused time,Not particularly have awareness,But when it comes to using it, I don't know where to start,I don't know who to call.

Kind of like we are usually healthy,sudden headache,需要看医生.Because of lack of professional knowledge,Not mastering professional services,Not even understanding how professional services are provided.we went to the hospital,Maybe you don't know which class to look at.

朱峰：Many of my friends are like this.Probably the last time I went to the hospital 10 年前,I recently discovered that I need to travel to the hospital frequently,I don't know if I should register first or pay first..

海燕：Suddenly need of legal service,It's very similar to seeing a doctor.有一个问题要解决,But I don't know how to define this problem,what question does it belong to,找谁解决,怎么解决,Including the solving process is a complex or a clear transparent process,完全不知道.But this is indeed our real life,May everyone can't avoid going to master the knowledge.

If there is a more inclusive、更透明、technology platform,Help you when you encounter problems,provide a solution to the problem.This is the value we saw at the time that no litigation provided.

朱峰：What Teacher Haiyan said,我特别有感触.Recently we are doing the incubation business of podcast,I have a good chat with a lot of anchors,But when a thick stack of contracts is handed to them,They would say don't sign the contract.I say it's a protection for both parties,大家也都能理解,But I'm afraid to see the thick contract documents.Ling,you in your day job,Have you ever encountered a client with a similar mindset?？ 

Ling：有的.第一,Business law is a very low frequency.但近几年,通过数据可以看到,Litigation cases of the law include non-litigation cases,grow exponentially.As our country's economy grows stronger,People's wealth is growing,Disputes are more likely to occur,More and more problems need to be solved by law.

以前,Have a problem to use the law to solve,Today more and more people need to deal with the law,There must be a natural fear,like ten years ago when we went to the doctor.while receiving legal services,There are still some professional thresholds,The legal profession is a bit like the old Chinese medicine system,Experience is also required. 

朱峰：There are many advanced equipment in the medical system,can help with diagnosis.

Ling：The healthcare system has great technology、Devices and Diagnostic Tools,in the legal profession today,科技、设备、Diagnostic tools developed a little later.在这里,The legal system is divided into jurisdictions and subjects,Extremely specialized.Lawyers are very different from Chinese medicine：in the Chinese medicine system,Several types of disorders may be a root cause;But the western medicine system,very finely divided,鼻子（科室）treat nose,肚子（科室）Treat the stomach.

And in the legal world,The lawyer system is also divided into jurisdictions and subjects,very detailed and professional.When a lawyer has settled in a field for a long time,become an expert,But the experts and do not like western medicine so clear.所以,When many people seek a lawyer,It is easy to encounter the situation that the department cannot be found or is not symptomatic.

朱峰：Not necessarily finding the right lawyer to serve.

Ling：就像中医,A pulse of small Chinese medicine,Said I could cure it;old Chinese medicine,Said I could do it.People can't judge.Possibly based on age,It may be judged by whether you have been on the leaderboard or not..As an ancient old doctor of traditional Chinese medicine,Famous representatives must be expensive.但是,See a little cold to look for a famous doctor,high probability cost and ROI is not very cost-effective.所以,I think there is still a lack of data,To distinguish between the lawyer's professional and visibility;In this system,A customer's problem,Which professional lawyers can provide reasonable services or prices,get this done.

what no lawsuit did today,It is to try our best to form a system of diagnosis and service.The service system is to put some vague problems were apart,Let the public to understand the problem of fuzzy should go to find what kind of expert.in this category of experts,according to its severity or complexity,And everyone can afford the economic costs,find the right lawyer.

朱峰：Is a problem of matching.

Ling：We often hear from customers,我找了 20 multiple law firms,But I can't tell who is good and who is bad;另一方面,We will hear a lot of lawyers say,I practice very, very hard and very professionally,But how do I let customers know I'm here？这个过程中,In fact, there is a lack of a clear cognition and matching system.

朱峰：individual or company,Demand side is the legal service.from the supply side,in the legal profession,Do lawyers themselves have some problems?？在录音之前,Teacher Haiyan shared a data,The number of lawyers in China is far from enough,How to make limited lawyers serve more people？like the last time i went to a lawyer,Lawyers keep asking questions,我猜,What he wants to ask is,Can this case、Is it worth taking.In fact, both sides are constantly evaluating.

海燕：Lawyers are also evaluating ROI.

Ling：Because lawyers are a typical profession that trades time for labor results,course will evaluate ROI.If there are capable tools including technology to make it faster,Or make many cases assisted by technology,And be more、younger lawyer,handle more accurately,All the lawyers and law firms ROI 都会提升.

There are many problems facing the legal profession today;第一是,Ratio of population to lawyers,There is still a lot of room for improvement in our country,The rule of law is becoming more and more important,More and more cases are pushed into the system of lawyers and even non-litigation,Coordinate to resolve.

朱峰：The supply of lawyers is not enough.

Ling：more than lawyers,There are also mediators,仲裁员.This group and the lawyer group together,可能接近 1000 万人,即使这样,Have room to improve the whole service system;第二,Lawyers are mostly masters with apprentices,Young lawyers or practice lawyers through worship master study. 

朱峰：Really like an old doctor.

Ling：Is the transfer efficiency of the master apprentice system more efficient?？Student can learn real skill？Young lawyers choose different places after graduation,Not all lawyers have the right education system,be able to grow in the career.

海燕：Lawyers in addition to research,must also practice,就跟医生一样,Just test some theoretical evidence,Probably not enough to make him a good lawyer,Also need to touch the actual case.It's a career growth process. 

Ling：在这个过程中,The more complicated the case,The harder it is to become a very professional lawyer.什么“毛病”都看,Ultimately it's hard to take the path of extreme expertise.

朱峰：网上有很多说法,Why is the service of Chinese lawyers different from overseas?？It's because everyone's legal system is different,Anglo-American legal systems may rely heavily on precedents to deduce results,or litigation services.Ling,你怎么看？

Ling：The difference is comprehensive.第一,Our lawyers for our civil law system、For the country's law,Awareness and understanding must be very deep,Even learn the judgment and system of each local judge.比如,一审、二审、The whole process of retrial.

第二,Chinese precedents are very useful.In order to carry their own case views, many lawyers,Looking for past cases.The data of our country and scientific and technological progress very fast,在我的认知中,It may be that the world applies technological capabilities to the justice system to drive progress,leading countries.举个例子,2015 年开始,The big data of the entire judicial case is released to the whole people.Any lawyer can go to the Judgment Documents Network to find past judgment documents cases.

这特别重要,Because many countries may even have very backward infrastructure for electronic search.,But in China we already have this system.Today's Younger Generation of Lawyers,过往几年,The accumulation of legal knowledge is highly dependent on these technological tools.

what technology can do？It can make our country develop in the direction of the same case and the same sentence,And connection of cross-regional business with.If a reasonable case is found,In the case of the corresponding logic,A lawyer can fight a very successfulcase.

朱峰：Check a case before,May have to go to various places to overturn a large number of files,还是纸质的.Now by means of the Internet,See previous cases in one place,Equivalent to the outer brain of a lawyer.

Ling：是.Not only can you see the case,accumulation of big data、用 AI Start building a map,Help lawyers de-map these cases,and find the associated case,Find the negotiation points and their associated standing point,是非常重要的.Today's technology is perfect.

朱峰：I'm trying to understand a lawsuit-free business.No litigation has both ends of the customer,At one end is a lawyer,At one end are people who need legal services.Wuli made a matching and service construction in the middle.

Ling ：是的.Because lawyers need a lot of tools,tools throughout the job,Will let the lawyer's efficiency is becoming more and more high.

朱峰：So it's not just an intermediary platform.

Ling ：完全不是.It is actually a service platform,We define it as an ecological.

朱峰：It's not like a door-to-door manicure、door-to-door massageO2O 的业务.

海燕：Law is a complex service after all,Not a simple docking can be done.

朱峰：It is responsible for the quality control of the whole process of service. 

Ling：第一,by giving lawyers more、更好的工具,Let lawyers throughout the service process,Have the most advanced tools to do one thing well;第二,We have many more courses,More than half of all lawyers in China have attended the non-litigation course,包括基础教育、继续教育,我们有超过1500 位专家,From major well-known political and law schools and some key jurisdictions,These teachers may not be seen by many lawyers in the traditional system. 

朱峰：Wu Li is also responsible for the re-education of lawyers.

Ling：on a litigation-free platform,These lawyers can learn,Learning is based on what they do and the cases they do today.came across a case,such as a marriage case,Is not able to put the best teacher's perspective in the course,Especially after the abstraction and structuring of information very similar to this case,Find some cases that are particularly similar.In the case of matching with his territory,Be able to help this attorney to the best of his ability to find the best solution,这是第一步.

第二步,提供一套 SaaS 系统,During the lawyer's case,There are some standard nodes,Embed these solutions.

朱峰：That's what I wanted when I filed a lawsuit,I just don't know what to do next,Tools are needed to control the process.

海燕：After lawyers have such work tools,In order to open some nodes to the demand side of the law,Let them see the flow and trajectory of work.If lawyers don't have structured work tools,Can't let the customer see transparency of process efficiently.

Ling：We meet many clients,The core question is,After the lawyer is selected,why no news？

海燕：what is the lawyer doing？Is he busy with my business?？

Ling：对于客户来说,This may be his lifetime encountered for the first time.But lawyers may have a ton of cases on their hands,Here are some clear requirements,such as process and progress,Need a series of management tools. 

朱峰：Because it is a long-term service,一定是有流程的.

海燕：process management. 

Ling：We need to stand in the customer's point of view,from a lawyer job,Find possible card points.These card points have nothing to do with the lawyer's own professional attributes,in process management.For example, one of the lawyers on the team has left.,Full transfer and continuation of information on this case,通过科技、通过系统,The first is to empower lawyers.

The second is to provide the best service deliver to our clients.我们搭建 SaaS 系统,not to control anything,In fact, it is to serve customers who entrust us to solve problems.,Hope to help them find peace of mind,“安心”can be found in the data.

朱峰：After many people find a lawyer,As Teacher Haiyan said,I don't know what the lawyer is doing,Are you busy with my business?.Still got a lot of things at the same time,不理我了.

海燕：send a courier,all want to know,Where did the courier go today?？Is it in Beijing or a transit station?？Hope to have a full process tracking,progress can be checked.What's more, it's important to put a、A legal matter of great concern is entrusted,Definitely want to know how the whole process works,how to advance.

朱峰：For the individual,A lawsuit is a very important thing,It can't be compared with the express delivery of ten yuan wallet mail.在这个过程当中,the most concerned,Or to know what lawyers are doing,在这些基础上,how to improve efficiency.

Ling：我们发现,Every lawyer's practice、Communication is very different.在这个过程中,No litigation as a third party,as a third party to help lawyers,Also a third party that helps customers,find some balance,Can resolve many contradictions and conflicts.

朱峰：Can you give us some practical examples?？

Ling：I have a college teacher friend,He knows a lot of lawyers,But when he has some conflicts with the landlord,still found us,Because it is too small,It is difficult to consult lawyers and friends you know around you.我们经常会发现,There are many legal issues,Cannot find legal friends for help,He needs a professional stranger,such as marriage and family matters.The handling of these privacy,Can't find familiar friends and relatives or university students.

第二,Many lawyers are expensive,也很忙,There are some things not worth at all for their help.His request is quite simple,Just write a lawyer's letter to negotiate.,Because the requirements of the landlord is not reasonable.We do it in a very good way,Help him out soon.We helped him find a local practice with a short lifespan,But young lawyers who study very hard.How recommended？We have lawyer big data,Including study data for lawyers、school grades、Which law firm do you work for?、work performance etc.,We recommend one that we think is particularly reliable,But they also do not need to spend a lot of money,A lawyer who can take this problem seriously.

朱峰：The demand side itself has a certain legal knowledge background,Know who to look for or how to solve a problem.First of all, he can judge for himself that it's not a big deal.,I believe there are a lot of ordinary people,Can't tell how big things are at first.

Ling：We have a client who comes here.他80 Aged old father riding a tricycle,I was hit by a deliveryman during the retrograde.The car is fine,外卖员也没事,The old man fell,six broken ribs.Traffic proportional amount is 5 feet away,30％It's the delivery guy's problem,70% Is the problem that the old man.The client took the old gentleman to the hospital for treatment,找到我们,He wants to solve two problems：第一,Can a food delivery platform pay for some of my father's medical bills?？第二,Does the father need to take on additional responsibilities?.After his father fell,Six broken ribs.even though the greater responsibility lies with his father,But the food delivery platform and the insurance company behind the food delivery platform need to pay.所以,most of the people,When this situation occurs,may not recognize,can be paid.

朱峰：The traffic police judged me to be responsible,From recognize unlucky bai,This is probably what most people think.

海燕：Law is a particularly complex system,I haven't learned it yet.I once tried to see Zhang Mingkai, a teacher at Tsinghua Law School.《刑法学100讲》,Barely hear twenty five lectures,Listen to it,太难了. 我心想,If you have any problems, I will find my lawyer friend to solve it..

朱峰：太专业了,I have the same mental journey.

Ling：There are some cases of marriage and family affairs,looks like a divorce,很简单,In fact, the problem is very complex.

朱峰：Getting married is a major recapitalization process.

海燕：Divorce is bankruptcy.

Ling：file for divorce,Divorce Attorney or Marriage and Family Attorney,可能是很合适的.But if one party is the owner of a company,There must be a company and equity behind it.这个时候,The case involves two parts,Part of it is like bankruptcy and reorganization,A lot of thinking with equity.How to deal with equity reasonably？how to get divorced？Is it an agreement or a lawsuit?,There may be custody,There is also the possibility of inheritance behind custody rights.

所以,in a marriage case,some richer families,The more complex the legal issues encountered in the process,可能是一个“组合拳”.Looking for a law firm or a lawyer may not solve the problem,Really need a good lawyer.

海燕：Requires the cooperation of a lawyer.

Ling：Collaboration and collocation of lawyers,And some handshakes and some trust behind the scenes.从客户的角度,Hope to find the most professional lawyer who can work with you.but who do we find first？This organization may need to coordinate the latter.所以,Maybe we'll find an equity lawyer first,But equity lawyers looking for matrimonial lawyers may not be doing so well in marriage..

海燕：Too much like medical service,There must be an attending doctor,Because I went to the hospital alone,If the problem is bigger,Usually is not only a kind of disease,It's possible that several parts of the body are at fault.,He has an attending doctor,Then you have to see several doctors,Come up with a treatment plan.

朱峰：There are also various issues that need to be weighed in the middle.

Ling：反过来也是.Find a marriage lawyer,It may not be the best deal in the equity part.其实,It is how to find professional solutions to the corresponding problems.It's really hard to find a lawyer,这个难,Mainly because of the law and low frequency,The threshold is higher,Professional depth is very high.

朱峰：Ling,You seem to be from a technical background？How to think of using technology to participate in such a complex business？unlike us writing code,1加 1 就等于2,it has a lot of uncertainty,Content that needs to interact with people.Use technology to solve such complex problems,I find it quite challenging.

Ling：要说回到2015 A chat with Lao Zuo,Lao Zuo is Zuo Hui,The then chairman of Lianjia.he asked what i wanted to do？我跟他说,My dream is when jobs and elon·马斯克,Use technology to change the world.His reply at the time said so：“Ling,Entrepreneurs of our generation,60 后、70 后,Entrepreneurship is to open up the world,do one thing never have.Entrepreneurs of your generation,80 后、90 后,What to do is to make social services better.在他看来,从40 分到 60 分到 80 分,is the next generation of Chinese entrepreneurs,necessary to do.” 他说,Without our next generation of entrepreneurs doing these things,埃隆·Musk and Steve Jobs can't appear in China,因为埃隆·Musk and jobs need to occur in a relatively safe environment,There are some social security.Fear of being cheated when purchasing services in China,When the legal system just passed,Our whole society is anxious.Anxiety in society will make the next generation of children grow up with anxiety,Anxiety is the inability to cultivate yearning for freedom、people who want to go to Mars.

朱峰：I feel like the chain has solved a similar problem.. 

Ling：2015年,When Lao Zuo told me about this concept,他的意思就是,If I go the technical line,influence to the extreme,It's pretty common in China.Entrepreneurship must go to industry,Go to service.第一,China's biggest economic boost is in the service sector;第二,The service industry is the most lack of quality、The least capable.2017 He came to me again when he was about to make shells.两年的时间,We continue to communicate,make me think more clearly,Can do science and technology is a kind of career choice,is a skill.but contribute,真正改变世界,在中国,Need to industry earnestly、to serve the public.

2017 年年底,I join the shell,There were no shells,2018Year Shell was established.The no-litigation story is very similar to this.2014Lawyer Nian Jiang found me,说Ling,I want to do legal tech,What legal tech internet companies should do？At that time, I have been starting a business on the Internet,Probably the closest internet entrepreneur to him.从2014Lawyer Jiang started a lawsuit as the founder,I helped with the first interview CEO, 一直到今天,一点一滴,as if looking“无讼”This kid is growing up.

The legal industry is booming,with many new ideas and new ideas,There are many, many new needs.在这八年里,We can see that this vertical service industry is small,Although very professional,Although the threshold is high.但是,It has more and more room for development.The whole Chinese society and our country support the rule of law,especially non-litigation,“无讼”way to solve the problems of the people.

海燕：70 后、80后这一代人,due to the increase in education,Everyone's legal thinking is deeper than that of the previous generation.Our parents' generation,50 后、60 后,When you encounter a problem, you may not think of using the legal weapon for the first time.,但 80 后、90 后都会想到,Use legal methods to solve some pain points and problems in life.How to find this tool or the corresponding professional platform,是另一个问题.

Ling：there are many people who need help.比如,Internet today“毕业潮”,80 后、90I will take my lawyer to discuss resignation.Because there are various intellectual property issues behind,There are various agreements to be signed,to determine whether it is legal.在这个过程中,to protect their own interests,and the interests of the next company to go,就需要involveto a lawyer.我们看到,After the lawyer intervenes,The results of the talks were very good,It will gradually force companies to study more in the field of labor,越来越正规,Benefit the entire labor groups.

海燕：Labor laws are very strong.在中国,Labour law should be the fairest、To make the most of the law.

朱峰：Because it involves everyone's core vital interests. 

Ling：Many people are willing to try,to defend one's own interests.Wu Li also launched some Internet tools、小程序,to help our customers.

朱峰：刚才我们提到了,Litigation-free is not just an intermediary platform,通过技术手段,Provide a lot of different services for both supply and demand sides.How technical means can meet very non-standard needs？

Ling：in several steps.The legal industry cannot directly use technology,A product that gives a legal solution right away.（法律行业）是非标的.non-standard process,什么是标准的？People who work around these non-standard businesses,can be standardized.ability behind people、工具、共识、信息、How cooperation can be standardized.

所以,The first step to litigation-free is to create these capabilities、Tools and Collaborative Systems,Lawyers who make sure to do all non-standard cases today,have the best tools,These weapons can make the process of handling each case more standard,这是第一步;With this standard and the huge group and system ecology behind it,What is re-precipitated is the data.This data comes from the judgment document、Article analysis data、Server usage data, etc..

We had a system called lawyer business card,Precipitation in a system of law dictionary.How to draw a more accurate portrait of a lawyer？As data dimensions rather than reputation ranking dimension,非常重要.How to provide this capability to our customers？Litigation-free clients,Whether it is an individual client,or business customers,能够更好、Connect more smoothly to the needs of lawyers.

Do it without litigation,is to build the tool first,Then start paving.Lots of servicers on the highway,How can we let these roads pass our SaaS 系统、human service,Reach out to real legal needs,Match and associate again.

朱峰：You made a more accurate portrait of each lawyer in the background.Where does the image data come from?？Through his own past cases?？ 

Ling：第一,past case,Judgments are public.

第二,There is a series of public information.Can write some articles of law such as fetching in a timely manner,then gather in one place.We provide attorney certification during the process,Let a lawyer confirm if it's yours.

第三,A series of data and credentials.其中,We also have operational actions to ensure authenticity.around these three things,Build a base model.and more complex models,Just add the hobby of learning,For example, what kind of articles and what kind of courses to read.

朱峰：Even in the process of content consumption without litigation, it will become the data of the basic model.

海燕：Collaboration data for services provided are included. 

Ling：No litigation is very open,We have communicated with many legal technology practitioners,Can these data be communicated to each other in time?,Make picture more rich.

第四,在使用工具的过程中,Can you capture some action?.这样,be able to know some additional information,This information may have nothing to do with professionalism,Maybe more of a habit.Whether it's work habits or diligence attributes ,有很大的关系.

我们的 SaaS 系统里,When a lawyer finished her homework,The output is a lawsuit,eventually become a jury.This process can be divided into several modules,We can decompose a case into its process,Can have data to determine.We don't judge whether this scheme is good or bad,Because of the need for cross-validation and other methodologies.

But what we can do is,Lawyers throughout the whole process is made to do,Or recommended by data analysis,Like this case to do a lot of similar action,Did these actions settle?？Are these actions capable of becoming one of the data？

朱峰：Through the collection of various behaviors of everyone,Can know his richer habit-oriented things.

Ling：We have done a lot of data,collection and communication.The entire legal system today,make a rating or evaluation system,是非常复杂的,Nor is it a problem that any one company or technology company can solve..

朱峰：may even be harder than the healthcare system.

Ling：with a lot of subjectivity.How is a case resolved?,There may be several points can be used as a breakthrough point,become a key to winning.所以,In fact, it is difficult to match and judge who is good and who is bad in a scheme,It is easier to present this data systematically,to the people and B 端客户,A system of transparent data show.

海燕：The performance system of lawyers in law firms can also be done with the help of this platform. 

Ling：在这个过程中,What we expect is that the whole system becomes a more living lawyer's business card.in the process of lawyering,lots of data、案例,accumulate on oneself,Show it to his future clients through our technology,In this system, the lawyer's professionalism and hisexpertise,Recreate more direct and transparent data.These data are original,but how to integrate,How to do informatization and dataization,it takes a lot of effort.

朱峰：if this can be done,the foundation of the legal profession.

Ling：This is related to lawyer Jiang's dream.We have always wanted to create infrastructure,Because the legal profession still lacks infrastructure.Because the law firm still revolves around cases and problem solving,Most law firms don't really want to solve industry problems,May just want to solve their own law firm's problems.但是,There is very little infrastructure to settle in this industry.

海燕：A law firm does not have the ability to self-employ an entire technical team、Willingness and ability to manage technical teams. 

朱峰：The law often lags behind the development of technology.In the process of litigation-free establishment and operation,有没有遇到,Possibly technically possible,However, it is difficult from the perspective of compliance or management of lawyers.The lawyer's industry management is relatively very strict,Will there be some issues where the technology is out of touch with the current regulations?？how did you solve it？

Ling：We haven't encountered these problems yet.Because the country's judicial system technical or legal fieldIT化,已经非常完善.

朱峰：He walked very forward.

Ling：This period of in-depth and judicial leadership、Communicate with the leaders of the jointed,I found that everyone's starting point is basically the same,It is to help lawyers solve more common people's problems together.全国有54 A Law Society,In use without litigation,包括教育、系统的解决方案.The problem facing the Law Society is,How lawyers can meet client demands,减少投诉.Reducing complaints is one of their lowest starting points,higher angle,Is to improve the standard of the industry and services.Service efficiency and service hours are important.This is exactly what the non-litigation is going to solve..

A series of things we do today,country is welcome.I think it's a long road,Because there is a lot of communication to do.No lawsuit is from the point of view of the common people,To solve the difficulties and problems encountered by ordinary people.

海燕：The question of access to legal services.

Ling：many high-profile businesses,Whether high net worth individuals or large corporations,有好多选择.Is nothing more than a little cheaper or more expensive.

朱峰：There are also professionals to help him choose.

Ling：an excellent lawyer,May serve the common people at a young age.After becoming more and more excellent,Because time is exchanged for labor cost,The customer base served will become more and more high net worth,客单价越来越高.The best group of lawyers in the industry,Serving high net worth clients.

Who are the other lawyers to help them?？Today's position without litigation and lawyer Jiang's dream,It's a young lawyer in China, someone must come to help.Clients served by this group of young lawyers,are ordinary people.No lawsuit can if it can provide some help,可以解决很多问题,such as the employment of young lawyers,People's trust in the law and satisfaction with services, etc..It solves the problem of judicial stability at the social level or the government level.在这个定位下,No litigation has made a lot of effort.

朱峰：like we just talked about,No suit seems to be an intermediary platform,但又不全是,Because it is involved in the entire business process,而且行业 know-how done deep.Mr. Haiyan as an investor,How do you feel about no litigation?？

海燕：Litigation-free is actually an enabler,It does not directly provide legal services per se,But make legal services more efficient、更可及,更普惠.It is actually with better tools and tools as a third party to provide value、Technology value and service value,Make the whole legal service smoother.

We were the first to know that there is no lawsuit、Investment without litigation,Influenced by the founder lawyer Jiang's mission and values.Tiantong founded by lawyer Jiang earlier,One of the top law firms in China,The per capita customer order or per capita income should be one of the highest in the industry.Attorney Jiang has achieved a very high level in terms of being a law firm,But what he thought was not how to make Tiantong more high-end,He hopes to solve some common problems in the legal industry.比如,刚才Ling提到的,Lawyer Jiang has also told us many times,Problems with the growth of young lawyers.

Lawyer Jiang's dream is to be free from litigation,Make legal services more inclusive,When ordinary people need legal services,have an accessible place,Have a professional body to help them be more efficient、Better access to legal services and guarantees that should be obtained.同时,Can help young lawyers grow.We are infected by this dream,在2016No litigation in investment.

朱峰：law is a necessity,But this need is more difficult to solve,because it's so precise.Do you have any concerns about this?？No litigation may encounter greater challenges,cause it to fail.Because the Internet doesn't necessarily solve all problems.历史上,There have been similar examples. 

海燕：对,So later O2O 的说法.The Internet can't solve all problems,But the Internet can solve a large part of the problem.I think the biggest challenge without litigation is not the technical level,刚才Ling也提到过,Technology accumulation and technology precipitation in the legal industry,Data precipitation is a lot,no matter the law、Jurisprudence or lawyer data.No lawsuit2014 年做到现在,已经积累了大量的数据,Recognized and trusted by lawyers.

I think for no litigation,要再上一个台阶,In fact, it is to open up public awareness,Common people's perception of this platform.Because the law is a low frequency service,when there is a legal need,where to get help？No lawsuit should let the common people know,I can find a way to help you,Or I have good tools and services to help you connect the legal services you need smoothly,This may be the next challenge for Wu Litigation. 

朱峰：The core of litigation-free efficiency and success lies in,The accumulation of the past eight years.

海燕：对,从2014Year-to-date accumulation.Law-related cases just mentioned,法律条文、培训内容、Services to the Lawyers System、工具、Empowerment is accumulation.

Ling：If you look long term,It's actually three moves.第一步,What Lawyer Jiang has done in the past eight years,That is, to build the supply of the entire server,And the lawyer of the whole system can assign and growth;第二步,connect these capabilities,Provide accurate and inclusive legal services to the public and ordinary people,The so-called people's lawyer is the carrier of legal services for the people;第三步是什么？Legal Issues We Encountered,In many cases, it can be resolved before the dispute.For example, if the contract is clearly explained,everyone signed,Behind will avoid many problems.many, many legal issues,All without good contracts and agreements,some problems.

海燕：争议比较大,It is because either didn't sign the contract,or signed an unclear contract. 

朱峰：A lawyer friend once said something to me,我特别赞同.他说,Lawyers aren't hired after an accident,But to make the things will be looking for.

Ling：From the perspective of a technology platform,from a litigation system or a dispute resolution system to a“无讼”体系.The final third step should be“无讼”.“无讼”的业务,It's a contract business at the beginning,There is a very big technology space.how to digitize these things？even in the metaverse,只要有人的地方,clearly need these services.

海燕：For example, Mr. Zhu,I find you borrow money,借不借？

朱峰：我先想想.

首先,I have to look at the money Mr. Haiyan borrowed,Can't afford to give：）Friends borrowing money is a very common scenario,The vast majority of people will not sign the agreement out of love,It's hard when it comes to asking for money.

海燕：是的,just turned around.if there is a good platform,a legal tool,理论上讲,Like I'm going to lend my friend some money,I may simply send him a loan agreement through the WeChat applet,The other party clicks and signs.I transferred the money,Evidence is also preserved,May avoid future disputes,就不会有争议.

朱峰：If I want to pit,I may not dare to see this agreement..

海燕：对,Because he knew that he signed the agreement,There is evidence of transfer.

Ling ：have a clear agreement,Haiyan always don't know really,This is an upcoming product without litigation.

海燕：After no litigation, it can play a lot of value in technology tools.

Ling：E-signature is very convenient,This technology is easy to.It solves a face problem,it's a handy tool,没有那么麻烦,do face recognition,Signed right away.

海燕：很方便.Borrow some money,And the other party has to sign a thick agreement.,also embarrassed.

朱峰：Electronic means can easily solve the problem of human feelings.

Ling：Later traceback will be easier.Because it is an electronic signature,Can be blockchainized,Can direct docking Internet arbitration tribunal or the Internet.

海燕：So this is our way to“无讼”的路.在事情发生之前,Use legal means to protect each other first,Avoid going to disputes or even lawsuits.If you want to go there,Litigation-free can also help resolve disputes.

朱峰：Ordinary people can register an account on Wuli to enjoy these services？

Ling：There will be soon.

海燕：可以期待一下.It's not just that there is a problem to be litigated to find no lawsuit,When any legal service is required,have a document,一个协议,have a prior、A legally binding agreement can be.

朱峰：搞事情之前,Let's settle these things first.

海燕：And this agreement is legally binding,It is a professional platform to provide legally effective supply.Let's just write a small note,Probably no legal effect.

Ling：From a technical man's point of view,Do any technology and tools are relatively not very hard.To see the series of cases behind,Contradiction and conflict points,各种各样的 Edge case ,Only then can we go from the direction of litigation to“无讼”方向走.Lawyer Jiang gave the name to Yu Wuzi,Really hope we can solve the problem without dispute resolution,more by convention,Through the way of a gentleman's address.

朱峰：The dispute resolution in the front.

海燕：This is also the top concept in medical.

朱峰：这就是“Prevention Science”.

海燕：No litigation can be done under the premise of protecting user privacy,write some cases,Is a part of the franco-prussian education.

朱峰：刚才LingThe cases mentioned are quite representative.,Just to bring out the value of non-litigation.非常感谢LingCome to our program,Talk to you about the chemistry between the Internet and the law.

关于「厂长来了」

Tell the entrepreneur's own story.

“厂长来了”is an innovative interview podcast,Invite successful entrepreneurs and investors,Let’s break down the problems of starting a business together,Share the challenges of starting a business、hardships and rewards.

With the unique intimacy and warmth of the sound,and true stories,“厂长来了”Get rid of ordinary PR draft、The sense of distance between media interviews and industry observations,Help listeners feel head-to-head communication,It also helps entrepreneurs and listeners to establish a real emotional connection.

“厂长来了”The second season is co-produced by Relish and Huachuang Capital.

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